Track & Field Concepts for All Athletes with Kurt Michael Downes BA, B.Ed, MA, OCT, ChPc

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Training Load Monitoring & Planning: Using ACWR with Siobhan Milner MSc, CSCS – Total Performance with Siobhan Milner

Excited to get this out into the world because Kurt Michael Downes is a coach you should know. Not only does he know his stuff, he’s incredibly generous in sharing that knowledge.

Kurt also has an impressive amount of industry experience (in addition to all those fancy letters next to his name), including coaching Canadian Olympian Brandon McBride to the 800m record of 1:43.20, and guiding Kelsey Balkwill to a top 6 placing in the 400H at the World Junior Championships and top 20 placing at the World Indoor Champions in the 400m. How lucky am I that such cool people are happy to chat with me?

I really enjoyed this discussion with Kurt, and I felt like I learned a lot. We spoke a lot about how track and field style training can be used for non track and field athletes, and we also talked about speed and agility in general, and mechanics of running in general.

Kurt gave a lot of practical examples and I found this a super, super valuable listen. I hope you enjoy. Find it everywhere you get your favourite podcasts.

Thoughts about this episode? Let me know over on IG!

About Kurt Michael Downes:

Kurt Michael Downes is an award winning teacher with the Windsor Essex Catholic District School Board and President and Head Coach of the Border City Athletics Club.

Kurt has represented Canada as a staff coach at nine international events, including the Tokyo 2021 Olympic Games. He coached Canadian Olympian, Brandon McBride to the 800 meter record. He guided Kelsey Bale to a top six placing in the 400 hurdles at the World Junior Championships and a top 20 placing at the world Indoor champions in the 400 meter.

He is an advocate for community and sport access for youth, having facilitated, led and created discussions, forums and programs for youth and diversity.

He is a public speaker and builder, and he was also the recipient of the Canadian Running Magazine Golden Shoe Award as the Community Builder of the Year, the Under Armour Diversity Award,  Athletics Canada Dr. Doug Clement Coach of the Year, and the Contributions to Catholic Education Award. Kurt has also recently begun his PhD in kinesiology.

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Where to find Kurt:

Twitter / X: KurtMichael_dee

LinkedIn: Kurt Michael Downes

Instagram: @kurtmichael_dee

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Transcript for Track & Field Concepts for All Athletes with Kurt Michael Downes BA, B.Ed, MA, OCT, ChPc

Siobhan Milner: [00:00:00] Welcome Kurt. Good morning.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: Morning Siobhan, how are you?

Siobhan Milner: I am great and I’m actually particularly excited to talk to you because I’ve just done some, sprint training with some athletes this morning and I had this kind of, uh, idea of questions I wanted to ask you and then lots of things come up when you’re actually out there doing things with athletes.

So I’m looking forward to this. Nice. I wanted to, so you, you’ve just mentioned to me before we started recording that you’re actually also now, a PhD candidate, so I’d love to know a little bit about, where you think that might go.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: Yeah. I just recently started in, September. I had gone back to school, to do a master’s in 2010, 2011.

Um, and it was kind of spurred on by working with a group of athletes that I was with at the time. And, some of the success that we had had, and I had a lot of questions and thoughts. And, at the time there weren’t that many coaches that were willing to, give me, you know, their time. Um, you know, Canada has been one of those places [00:01:00] that’s been, sort of a double edged sword where there’s a few groups of, of, of coaches that were willing to talk.

Um, and a few that were like, You know, sort of hoarding, information and didn’t really want to, you , provide information. So, I had gone back and worked, with, Vicki Crowley, at, University of Western Ontario. And,, she’s worked with a ton of athletes, Jessica Zlinka at a point in time, as well as, more recently Caroline Erhard, and she’s the head coach of the,, Western University, track and field team.

So. It was interesting because I also got to work with a female, head coach, from there, you know, obviously, I’d gone on and, and worked with a bunch of different athletes, different, sort of avenues and venues. And then after, 2019, 2018, 19, and, through COVID, I started to think maybe, you know, I should go back to school.

Um, and it’s some conversations I’d had with my father. Prior to his passing and it was something that was maybe on the docket, but I wasn’t really sure. And then I [00:02:00] kind of, you know, through the 2022 year in Oregon, I thought, Hey, this is really what I want to do. I definitely want to go back and, you know, sort of see where I can go with it and, explore some thoughts and some ideas I’ve had.

So. Um, right now I just finished, statistics and, the first half of a seminar course and, it went well and, you know, right now I’m just thinking about possibly, writing an abstract and, you know, playing around with some thoughts on, athlete development, is, is one of them, and, yeah, obviously you’re, you’re in that field of, of athlete development.

So. Um, I’m just looking at a sort of possibly doing maybe a meta analysis or analysis of, at a longitudinal study of, some track and field athletes here in the Windsor Essex area. I think we might be able to have access to some open source data. Um, that’s already on the Internet of, all of the high school athletes here in the city.

And then there’s also possible access to some elementary school data. [00:03:00] Um, and then there’s open source data, for the university athletes as well.

Siobhan Milner: So obviously you’re working with track and field athletes and I think it’s, one of the reasons I wanted to speak to you is there’s a lot, that I see for non track and field sport, we’re trying to use elements of,, track training to improve the performance of non track and field athletes as well.

So,, actually the first question I have is, is maybe kind of simple, but I think it’s worth,, going over is, Maybe it’s good to kind of break down what is track and field, but also what is sprint training and what is it not? Because sprint training is often one of the things that we’re taking with other sports.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: Um, well, I think, obviously track and field is, , in the larger, , scheme of the world. We call it athletics. Um, and I think it’s the basis for the majority of sports. Um, one of the reasons I was really interested in possibly [00:04:00] working with, Dr. Kevin Milne and looking at sport and looking at athletics specifically, not just because I’m partial to it, but because, it’s one of the most largely populated.

sports in the world. I mean, and it’s also one of the easiest to have access to. You need a lot to be involved as far as implements, etc, to be involved with sport in general. Obviously at the higher end, you know, there’s the super shoes and super spikes and All of these things that, that we have access to and, biomechanical analysis, et cetera, there’s all those things.

But at the grassroots level, being involved in athletics is, you know, fairly easy and it’s fairly easy to have access to it. Um, so when you think about what athletics is, I mean, it’s running, jumping, throwing, essentially, and it’s done through, you know, the coordination of limbs. So when you look at that and it being applicable to, you know, volleyball or football, soccer, [00:05:00] baseball, cricket, all of these other sports, there’s a basis for it.

In addition to that, you know, almost All sports have, locomotion in it. So there’s some starting and stopping moving, trying to get from point A to B as quickly as possible. Um, accelerating limbs, all of those different, components. There’s so much of it involved in all sports. So again, the basis of it is usually.

Athletics. So for me, when I think about athletics, I think of just, movement patterns, locomotion, starting, stopping, jumping, throwing, accelerating implements. All of those things together is usually what comes to mind when I think of, track and field or athletics. Um, and, as far as, the second part of the question, thinking about, you know, how, track and field, so to speak, or athletics is applicable to other sports.

I think some of it is, is, is what I just mentioned. You know, if you’re looking at volleyball, essentially you’re moving laterally, and then you’re [00:06:00] moving, you know, into a vertical component, or you’re moving in a linear space and then moving to a vertical component. That’s no different than, let’s say long jump, you know, on Wednesday, I was coaching long jump.

And that’s essentially what we’re doing. We’re moving from a horizontal sort of plane to a vertical plane in space. and that’s essentially what you’re doing in, coaching volleyball. Obviously, the dynamics of it are a little bit different, but in theory, it’s the same. So I’d say that, uh, track and field yeah, is, is, is absolutely applicable to every sport, I actually was having a discussion with a few coaches, in a chat group that we have, with, some coaches from, uh, Duke, , Virginia Tech, I think, uh, Chris at Eastern Michigan and, as well as, Tony over at, New Mexico.

And in the group, you know, one of the things we, we often just throw ideas out in, in that chat group. And, you know, it, it, it makes sense to me when we say that, you know, if you’re, [00:07:00] if you’re doing shot put heaves, essentially you’re accelerating implement. It’s no different than accelerating a racket in tennis.

So. Yeah.

Siobhan Milner: Yeah. I think it’s, it’s also really interesting when you explain it like this, that all of these sorts of movements are in all sorts of sports, even if it looks totally different because, um, I think especially for a nice foundation. In sport, a physical foundation. We want to be training lots of different movements.

We need to move well. because one of the reasons I kind of ask this is, you know, I work with some sports that are not on solid ground. I work with some ice sports where technically they’re not Running, and I also work with sports in the sand. And so I’ve sometimes, you know, when I’ve introduced a certain sprint training or a certain plyometrics, I’ve had coaches going, Oh, how is this relevant to us because we’re actually skating, we’re not running or we’re sliding or we’re, so yeah, this is, do [00:08:00] you feel that with, different surfaces or with movements that might not be actually running?

Do you think that these still have benefit for those sports?

Kurt MIchael-Downes: Yeah, I think, I definitely think that there’s a degree of transferability from, from one sport to the next at all points in time. as an example, we often work with, hockey players. And, , I always try to explain to them, okay, hockey is a start, stop sport, right?

You’re moving from, you know, essentially, changing direction, and then you have to overcome inertia again and move. Stop, overcome inertia, move again, right? So, In acceleration, that’s essentially what you’re doing anyway, right? You’re going from a stop position, to a start position and up tall running.

Yes, there’s a little bit of a lateral component in skating. You know, same as speed skating. There is a little bit of a lateral component because of how you have to push into, into the ice. But You’re still going from a stop to a start, you know, and, and continuing on to, from [00:09:00] a shorter, push pattern to a longer push pattern.

So, I still think that there’s transferability in it. you know, and you still have to, essentially do it as efficiently as possible. Those are still things that we do in, in, in athletics. So I always think that there’s a way to do it. I think that it’s important. I think that oftentimes sports get caught up in only moving in their planes that they do as well.

And sometimes stepping outside of that, there’s benefit for those athletes as well, especially along the developmental pathway. I mean in track and field, one of the things that we often do is we’re so linear that we don’t do You know, a lot of lateral movements, so as coaches, we often try to find ways to put lateral movements in, whether it’s counterjump types of activities or, or maybe we put them and mix them into, parts of the warmup or [00:10:00] general strength or circuits, et cetera, you know, we, we often have to put those things in there because we’re so, we’re so linear.

So yeah, I absolutely, absolutely think that there’s opportunities to, to, to do that. And it’s, it’s something that’s good.

Siobhan Milner: I also find planning in that movement variability, so doing things that they’re not doing in their sport, that has been Huge. I’ve noticed for the athletes I work with, but actually for myself and my own training, it just makes my body feel so much better to not have like that training monotony.

Like it’s exactly the same all the time.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: You know, it’s interesting. Again, I had this conversation as a strength conditioning coach that we work with a little bit. He was here in our city. He’s at the University of Guelph now. His name is Tommy Gingras, good, good contact for you to have a very good thinker.

Um, and, we were talking a little bit about just this, this movement variability. And, we talk about putting together sort of, menus, menu items for athletes, and allowing them to be able to choose from them, you [00:11:00] know, and, just in that, with that sort of, movement variability saying, okay, well.

Here are linear exercises, you know, here are, you know, counter movement jumps here would be, let’s say, you know, whatever, having that sort of menu of items for the athlete to choose from allows them to have a little bit of ownership over the activities, but variability where they feel like, Hey, I’m not doing the same circuit all of the time.

Uh, you know, especially for, okay, maybe that emerging elite athlete, you know, not necessarily, the developing athlete, but more so for that emerging elite athlete where it’s like, okay, I’ve done that, you know, coach, I want to try a little bit something different, you know, sort of thing. Yeah. The elite athlete, right?

As well,

Siobhan Milner: I think that’s great. Also just to have some agency over their own training, because I think the thing with, um, elite athletes is in a sense, I think it makes it a lot easier for them when they are [00:12:00] told, like, this is what you have to do, because there’s so many things they have to think about. So it’s great to be like, okay, I don’t have to think about it.

I just do it. But at the same time that in and of itself, like no one can maintain that level of focus. all the time when it’s the exact same thing. So I think that’s great for letting them kind of go, okay, now I’m going to do what I want to do for a bit.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we have, sort of, an acceleration complex and only put four different types of ways to push in there.

So, you know, a skipping start, or a falling start, a running start type of activity, a two point or a three or four point type start, you know, ways to, to, to push. And what I always say is, is. Do two of the ones you like, and then choose two that you are not supremely fond of, right? So, they get to do two that they like, but they also have to do, you know, two of ones that, that, that they aren’t supremely fond of.

Because you, that means that those are ones that they [00:13:00] don’t feel, supremely confident in. Yeah. They’re at least touching on those components as well. So, you know, you two sets of, of, of four. Accelerations to let’s say 20 meters or 20 meters, 30 meters. Um, you know, I’ll say, okay. We have four and four, you choose two that you like, you choose two that you like in the second set, and then that means there’s at least four total that are going to be a little bit different.

You know, again, they have that agency as you, as you said, over, over what they’re doing.

Siobhan Milner: Nice. So one of the things I’m wondering, because again, I’m always thinking about the. I actually at the moment don’t coach any sports on solid ground. Like I’m only, I’m only working as an S& C coach with, ice sports and sand.

But of course, there’s also things like swimming too. So what I’m wondering is, for coaches, but also athletes, if they want to incorporate any track and field style training or any plyometrics, any sprints, any accelerations, but on solid ground. So if they’re looking at running, [00:14:00] for example, or plyometrics, is there anything that.

Maybe, maybe first question. Are there any athletes that shouldn’t go straight into the high intensity plyometrics or sprints? Like, is there anything we need to bridge for those athletes that are maybe not actually running in their sports?

Kurt MIchael-Downes: again, I wouldn’t say that there’s something that we have to bridge, but I would say that you’d have to start it incrementally.

Um, you know, Coach Boo always talks about, having athletes do high intensity exercises, but with parameters. So, you know, an athlete returning from an ACL injury, do they have to do high intensity activities? Yes. In moderation that may only be something that’s an impulse that’s this big for right now that turns into an impulse that you know, it might be that big, then it might turn into something that’s that big but this is still a high intensity activity.

Um, but [00:15:00] with parameters. So I would say when, like we have a kid, Seba, who’s just recently returned from, MLS next, and he returned to us and he just started getting back, getting back into training and, You know, he’s 12th grade right now. So 17 ish years old. But his training program is very robust from the soccer standpoint, the football standpoint.

So what we try to do is find, you know, one or two days a week that we can do things. Oftentimes we don’t go past 30 meters for him. He gets so much of his conditioning and his strength, his strength and conditioning and all the other stuff from soccer. So what we work on a lot of the time is, first step, being, being reactive, transitioning, you know, items like that.

And what we may do, for instance, this week, we did some, one step, three step, five steps, seven step type stuff, so high intensity, but in shorter [00:16:00] durations and just. You know, sort of with with parameters around them because he came and he said, we started back training and we did something like a four hour session and I looked at him.

I was like, huh? I said, okay, so today you’re doing recovery types modalities, and, the second session of the week, we’re going to, we’re not going to go past 20 meters. And this is essentially what we did. Um, so we did, a bunch of one step pushes, three step pushes, you know, odd numbers up to, to nine steps, you know, and that was all we did.

Uh, so I think that, to answer your question, for any of the athletes, whether it’s beach volleyball , swimming, any of those things, I think that there’s always something you can teach from an acceleration standpoint for them. Because they’re always having to accelerate their body. Beach volleyball is still going to go from a standstill, accelerate to the net, and then have to gather and hit.

Um, they’re still going to have to, they’re going to have to do that, a one step type [00:17:00] of activity is still important, and and relatable and for them. So yeah, the only thing I would do is, uh, maybe not only start from a linear, front on type of activity or way we might do some varied ones. Um, it may be, from From the side, or from a lateral type of standpoint where maybe they start this way, and then they move to being, you know, in that plain straight straight forward plane as well.

I would just vary it. No, and that that’s that’s what I would do. But I think that, you know, sort of to sum up your question, I definitely think that It’s variable. It’s important for them to do. I just think maybe you have to vary it and and keep the parameters on it.

Siobhan Milner: You were talking about on the first step with this, this athlete. I kind of had two thoughts come from this. I think, like you’re saying, this, this dosage, making sure the volume’s not too high. I feel like often sports scientists understand this. People working in your field, like in track and [00:18:00] field, understand this. Strength and conditioning coaches usually understand this.

But sometimes the athletes and, the sports coaches don’t understand, quality over quantity.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: Yeah, I’m going to agree with you 100%, you know, often, hockey, football, and soccer, I’d probably say are, the biggest perpetrators in that area, that I’ve dealt with more recently.

Um, you know, I had some, football players getting ready for combine last year. Some CFL athletes and, one also coming off of, , an injury and he was a track athlete. So he, he really understands and gets it, that. He’s had two sessions in the day and he comes to track. I’m probably going to work on something technical with him.

It may be dribbles. It may be, you know, sort of, truncated runs, you know, things like along those natures of shorter duration with him, just because I know that. He’s done two sessions, maybe one in the weight room and one on the field. I’m not gonna, you know, we’re not gonna [00:19:00] sort of,, you know, bleed, everything that he’s done out of his body.

We don’t want to do that. So, he gets it. But a lot of the other guys that come over, it’s very hard to get them to sort of, shift that mindset and have them understand that, Hey, listen, we’re gonna start with just these drills and things, and that’s it. Because you did max lifting this morning. You know, you have a second session later on in the day, and then you have two days for the next, you know, two weeks.

And this is the block of time that your coach said that you need to come and do sprint training. Okay, so we’re going to do these things so that you’re able to also, you know, function and function well with the other parts of your training. Um, and maybe, you know, we’ll talk to your coach about, switching days so that we can pair some of, the themes with what they’re doing.

I think that’s also something that, applies to, um, those coaches is that, or, the athletes is that they don’t always know how to pair themes. [00:20:00] And I know coach blue talks about this quite, quite often is, you know, pairing similar themes. Like if you’re doing, you know, speed power types of activities, then we should be doing speed power types of activities on the track as well.

You know, don’t go and do your endurance work and then come and do. You know, essentially all of your speed power work after like right after, you know, those themes don’t don’t pair. They don’t match. So I think that oftentimes that, you know, when coaches are stepping maybe outside of their comfort level, and asking for some help with, acceleration or developing, you know, speed development and those types of themes and qualities. They don’t often realize that they may have to, you know, shuffle a little bit, their training, uh, because they’re often, you know, not very fluid in, in, in, in those thought processes.

Siobhan Milner: One of the other things you said that kind of piqued my interest was about, yeah, accelerations from a stopped position, because this is pretty relevant to, , the sports I’m with.

Like, as you [00:21:00] mentioned with, with volleyball, we see this a lot, but, short track, especially in the 500 meters short track speed skating, it is amazing that first acceleration to try and get into position around the corner. It is amazing how it really feels with the 500 meters that 90 percent of the time whoever gets in front there first is going to win the race.

So that acceleration is super important. But I wondered, for athletes, but also as coaches, is there something we should consider for that kind of, for training that kind of acceleration from a stop compared to accelerating when we’re already moving?

Kurt MIchael-Downes: You know, like I said, I would, I would look at, sort of activities where their first burst types of activities.

Um, you know, I’m sure things that you already, you know, you know, force plates, things like that. I’m sure you have access and use those types of, modalities. I always like standing long jumps and things to that nature, anything that are, bursts where the athlete has to be coordinated.

 I would even look at, [00:22:00] I don’t know if you do standing long, standing triples, exercises like that, where they have to start from a position, gather and coordinate themselves and get in, into moving and obviously sustain those movements for direction. I think that’s important. The, the one thing with speed skating is, biomechanically, it’s a little bit different than an acceleration for, for, for like track and field, because obviously, those strides are much shorter, you know, just based on the, I’m sure based on the, skate and the foot being locked in.

Siobhan Milner: And they’re also so low the whole time compared to. Yeah. Well, actually in the first acceleration, they’re up upright, but still they have to get low pretty fast.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: So, you know, because of those things, I think that, obviously there’s those considerations, but I think from a trainability standpoint of, of, of like biomotor qualities, I think that Standing long jumps, standing triple would be important, measuring, like, counter, uh, jump movements would [00:23:00] be important, I would say, you know, I still think that the first, second, and third, step type of activities are, are still good, you know, I think with those types of things, I would look at, maybe contrast training, Is another, that we often talk about, uh, possibly doing it resisted, uh, for the first part.

Um, you know, uh, you know, seven stride pattern. I would look if it was me. I would look at how many strides does it take to get to the first turn for that athlete and then I would try to, um. Obviously train that into, the qualities that I was working with acceleration and I would say, okay, you know, and I, but I don’t know this with speed skating, but I would say, maybe it’s 13 strides to the first turn.

I would say, okay, then I would look at 13 strides and I would say, and I would start to plan out, uh, you know, 7, you know, et cetera, on the way down. And I would say, let’s go resisted for the first one, the first three, the first five, uh, let’s go 1, 3, 5 on its own. [00:24:00] Then let’s go 1, 3, 5, um, assisted.

And I mean, you had access to a 10 80 or run rocket or those sorts of things. Maybe I would sort of implement that, those sorts of modalities in as well. I mean, I’m sure you could do it just with resistance bands or something along those lines. But I would, you know, possibly work in those capacities, and that in those spaces and see how the athlete felt, you know, and then obviously come back and time them.

 Without knowing speed skating that well, that’s sort of, you know, my initial thought is, is I might look at doing, again, obviously there’s lots of things you can train in, in the weight room, that, you know, have potential transferability with those skills as well.

Um, but off the top of my head, that’s, that’s what I would, think for sure.

Siobhan Milner: I’m really happy with how generous you are with all your information as well, Kurt, because I feel like you’re really, you’re, I’m learning a lot. So I just wanted to say that.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: I’d say thank you, but I would say, um, I’m super fortunate.

I’ve had lots of people, , [00:25:00] you know, give time to me. That have spent time on phone calls or, you know, emails,, text messages, whatever, uh, you know, and, and, and sometimes I’m, I may be a little bit of a. Pain because I keep emailing and texting, as, you know, you know, and it’s not meant in any disrespectful way.

It’s just that, you know, I think that maybe they’re really good at something, they have an idea or maybe worked with an athlete that it’s had an issue or, or, something that they’re working through. Uh, and you know, so whenever people call, I try my very best to, to provide as much information as possible.

Siobhan Milner: You talked about resisted, training. Now I’m, I’m really curious about this because, I haven’t really looked into the science around this for years now.

Um, I know when I did my bachelor’s, so I dunno, it was, yeah, like 13 years ago, we were cautioned with resisted training that. If the resistance was too high or you did too much of it, you might actually see people slow [00:26:00] down. is there anything we need to think of or be careful of for resisted training?

Kurt MIchael-Downes: I know that there’s a lot of there’s some research out there and actually, there’s another, chat group. I’m in with some Canadian coaches here. One at Guelph one at Saskatchewan, Alberta, Toronto, and, I can’t remember where the other one is now, but the like really good think tank.

I remember a few years ago, maybe it was 2017, we started to talk about, I think it was, Stu McMillan and Dan had, posted or put out, a paper or two on resisted training. And it talked about 5%, uh, 5 to 10 percent of the, of, , the athlete’s body weight. Um, and then recently I’ve talked to some other coaches and they’ve said that,, they don’t usually subscribe to the five or 10 percent rule.

They do is they, they just try to keep, the unloading of the weight consistent. So one of the things that I’ve done this year is, with the kids I have, I’ve gone, , for instance, uh, 10 pounds, on the sled, five [00:27:00] pounds. You know, and just try to keep that, you know, the unloading pattern consistent because there’s so many of them, you know, where in the past when I was still at the University of Windsor, and I was coaching, you know, hurdles and sprints there.

Um, I really tried to dial it in and be very, um, you know, specific on, you know, that five to 10 percent of the, of the body weight. I know there are people that will go as, as high as, 15 or 20 percent of the body weight. Um, You know, and use some, some heavier, heavier sleds with the resistance or even with the, , with the 10 ADI, uh, but again, even with that, I know it’s for, a period of time, like let’s say one cycle, so maybe it’s three weeks where they’ll do one session a week for three weeks and then unload the heavier sleds or, resisted runs.

So, I would say, whenever you set up your patterns, you know, I would just say, make sure the consistency of the unloading is important. Um, and again, I would also, I [00:28:00] mean, depending on what technology you have, you know, if you do have like a 1080i, you can also track so many other metrics where you information on whether or not, You know, uh, body position, ground contacts, et cetera, are being compromised because of, of, of the amount of resistance that’s being applied.

But for me, I don’t have access to those. So, I try to stay somewhere on the lesser end of it, and, you know, just try to keep my, my unloading patterns, you know, as, as consistent as possible. Obviously, there’s, some of the younger developing athletes where, we may only use resisted bands, you know, and, and those are often held by other athletes, you know, and what I try to do is I try to pair the athletes with someone of the same height, weight, et cetera, as them so that, obviously, you know, when I’m not having someone that’s, you know, overpowering, you know, one of the athletes.

But that’s often, again, what I do.

Siobhan Milner: You mentioned body position and whether or not [00:29:00] that’s affected, what I’m curious about when it comes to, I think, particularly thinking of running and sprinting, when athletes who are not track and field athletes, when they come and do some of this track style training or accelerations or sprints, In Olympic weightlifting, like there’s talk of fixed versus variable components of technique.

So like, this is the technique that ideally we’re going to see in 90 percent of lifts. And this is the technique that is maybe a little murky and depends on limb lengths, like all of these sorts of things. So is there anything, that athletes should really, really focus on when it comes to sprint training in terms of technique?

And are there other things that they can kind of get away with?

Kurt MIchael-Downes: I think we always coach to the standard, you know, we’re always looking at, things like, torso angles, angle at the hip, um, shin angles, uh, are probably one of, uh, the most important. Um, you know, you’ll obviously hear terms like, uh, being dorsiflexed at how you contact the ground.[00:30:00]

Um, again, if. If they’re sports like, for instance, you’re dealing with, I’m not as concerned with up tall running or, or, or maximum velocity running, because in their sports, the majority of them aren’t going to get there. you know, like I used to have this conversation with, um, oh, there was a baseball player we worked with, who played in the, Detroit Tigers organization, Jacob.

Robson and I would always talk to him and his strength and conditioning coach at the time was at Mississippi State. I believe he’s at Virginia Tech now as well. And we’d always talk about the fact that, stealing bases for him and the test. He had a 60 yard test. I believe that he had to run. Um, and, I’d always say, okay, let’s think about, the needs For or the KPIs and needs that he has for his, like for sprinting in his sport.

And I would say, okay, well, this is the distance between the bases. Um, you know, 30 yards or 20 yards or you know, 40 yards. [00:31:00] The distance is not that substantial by the time that he gets. You know, remotely tall, he’s already starting to descend and get into a position where he’s going to slide.

So is complete upright mechanics and everything else that we’re focusing on for him, is it super, super important? Or is just accelerating to 20 meters for him the most important thing, you know? So I think when we look at What the task is or, or, or sort of what the responsibility is for the athlete to do for that, that event or that, that sport, I say, let’s look at the mechanics that are necessary for that.

And let’s stay mostly in that wheelhouse. And yeah, we’ll do a little bit of this. But if we’re, you know, sort of, , splitting up, you know, the quantities of what we’re going to do, we’re probably going to spend the majority of What we do in preparing that athlete in, in these areas here. So him, we would spend a lot of time, you know, to 20 [00:32:00] meters and, you know, maybe get to 30 and that would really be the extent of what we did for him, So, when we look at, positions, I would say, are his positions going to be perfect?

No, because he’s not coming essentially 100 percent from, you know, a four point position. So are we going to do a stand start with him? Absolutely. We’re going to do a stand start for him. Are we going to look at, a stand, a stand start linear? No, because very often he’s not going to be in a linear position straight ahead.

Um, he’s probably going to be in this position. So, what I’m going to look at is, I’m going to look at him from a sideways stance, and then I’m going to look at him essentially being able to move from this position, turn, and then accelerate. Um, and a lot of the positions are similar, shin angles are similar, torso angles are similar after he’s swung, or, you know, after he’s, skipped into that acceleration position from, you know, let’s say first base, a lot of the positions are similar, but I would say.[00:33:00]

Um, you know, we’d look at just a couple, shin angle, torso angle, and then how the foot is contacting the ground. Maybe just those three, with those types of athletes. Um, you know, and, and I’d probably say, not ignore the other ones. I say ignore the other ones, but I would say that, you know, again, when you’re getting these athletes, I may have them twice a week.

Maybe once a week. Um, you know, and I may only have them for 45 minutes, an hour. In some cases now and a half. Which is fantastic. But in a lot of cases, I, I only have, you know, this amount of time, so I would just focus on those things.

Siobhan Milner: Mm-Hmm. , yeah. I, I work with some athletes who in, preseason or off season will go to track and field coaches.

 So this is also one of the things I’m thinking about for them because as I say, none of my sports are kind of traditional running sports. So in terms of technique for them, is there anything with injury risk that they should keep in [00:34:00] mind? You mentioned like the ground contact and I, I know for me when I’m teaching certain plyometric progressions I’m, I’m trying to make sure that they are not plant effects, like not pointing their toes a lot so they don’t land like this, but yeah, any general tips for if they’re going into track and field training?

Kurt MIchael-Downes: Um, and you may laugh at this, but I think the very first one of them is making sure that they have appropriate footwear, over the course of the last 10 years of working with the football and, you know, soccer athletes, especially the hockey athletes, they will come to you with shoes that they’ve worn.

Um, even actually the basketball athletes as well, they’ll come to you with the most improper, footwear selections that I’ve ever seen in my life. I’ve seen them come with, crossfit shoes that,, the soles are so rigid that they can’t like, it’s the equivalent of them coming with, you know, weightlifting shoe and you to sprint.

And then wondering why, you know, after their warmup, [00:35:00] their, their feet are, you know, fried. Um So I’d say the biggest sort of tip I would say is, is make sure they’re coming with proper footwear, right off the bat. I’m not saying you have to go out and buy brand new shoes, but don’t come with shoes that.

Uh, we’re 10 years old or, you know, are, are something that’s just not, conducive to, to sprinting or, or moving, quickly. The second thing I’d say is as far as ground contacts, I said, yes, always coach and teach ground contact. I always find trying to, dispel the myth of being plantar flexed is, is so it’s, it’s such a hard thing and I feel like it’s very much still, you know, a virus or an epidemic in, in, in coaching, you know, and I’m always trying to show like, you know, I had a, one of the kids come last year and she always has, shin sleeves on up to her knees and, you know, all these things that I keep pulling out video and trying to explain to her.

I’m like, I understand what your high school coach is telling you. It’s. [00:36:00] But here is the video that’s suggesting that this is how Very elite performers contact the ground. I’m like, this is a kindergarten This is showing you where they’re contacting the ground and at all points both sides This is what’s happening These are the most this is the the standard for the most elite athletes in the event that you want to compete in so Either I’m insane or, you know, like something isn’t, you know, correct here.

So I think that we need to re, you know, evaluate what, and how you need to contact the ground. I’d say the same for some of the other sports is when they come to you, obviously, you know, evaluate how their contact in the ground, but be cognizant of the fact that when they go back to their other sport or their other coaches, oftentimes the message is not the same.

Uh, the messaging isn’t paired. so I’d say just be cognizant of that and be armed [00:37:00] and ready to, show as many examples as possible, of the most elite performers and how they contact the ground, sometimes across all sports. You know, I had a rugby player once , he’s a South African, rugby player, big guy, , I think he was one of the number one players in the world.

And I was trying to show, this athlete how he was contacting the ground. And I was like, do you see what I mean? He has to apply force. I’m like, if he doesn’t apply force. In midfoot. What’s going to end up happening is he’s probably going to break his foot because look at the size of him. You know, so Those sorts of, of, of themes I would say are, are important, in, in sort of teaching, coaching or, or giving tips on, on when those other athletes come to, to work with you or even, any of the other strength and conditioning coaches.

Siobhan Milner: Yeah, the application of force. That’s, that’s a big one because I’ve seen as well. You know, I’ve, I’ve worked in the past, in personal training and commercial gyms as well. And I remember when I was working in a commercial gym. [00:38:00] Maybe six or seven years ago, I came in one day, we did some HIIT style class and there was all of a sudden all of these people kind of running like, they were lifting their knees.

They weren’t applying force. They were lifting their knees and someone had told them, yeah, you’ve got to get your knees high and without realizing that when you apply the force, of course, you’re going to come off and that’s actually what gets the knee lift. It’s not trying to get them off the ground like a horse.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: Well, and this is again, this is the toughest thing, because I think that, what ends up happening often is that years ago, everyone say, Oh, run on your toes, run on your toes, run on your toes. And I think that what people fail to realize is just that, is that you do have to apply force, you know, a change of direction for a, non athletics, sport athlete.

Like if you say that to run on your toes to a beach volleyball, player, It’s a recipe for disaster. You know what I mean? If they’re on the, you know, on the sand and they’re trying [00:39:00] to move across the sand and they’re running on their toes, they’re applying no force, which means there’s no change of direction.

You know, and, and, because you have to apply force in the opposite direction that you’re going in order to go in that direction. They’re, they’re just, you know, it’s, it’s counterintuitive, but You know, again, I don’t know.

Siobhan Milner: I find this fascinating because, so my background is like as a athlete myself is in endurance.

So, but I, when I was about 17 or 18 saw a sports doctor, this was when, there was kind of the gluteus medius craze, which I think has never really died off, but also like a whole lot of stuff around fore foot running. And he said to me, I had medial tibial stress syndrome. And he said, you know, you’ve got to switch to forefoot.

So I actually tried forefoot running for years. And now I’ve gone back to, I was a heel striker. I’m now a midfoot stance and I’m very happy in the midfoot, but yeah, this is why I find this also fascinating as well. Cause I kind of have tried all of [00:40:00] them and felt all of them. And what I notice is if I.

When I when I really ran for a while and tried this I couldn’t get rhythm That was how I found like because I just couldn’t push it out of the ground properly.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: Well, it’s interesting you say that Dan always says that I’m sorry. I think it’s Boo would always talk about A few things in, in, in presentations he would give and he would always say that, foot contact is speed , determinant.

It’s a determinant of how fast. So, you know, essentially, if you’re walking, you’re going to be a heel striker. And, and the majority, the vast majority of of people when they’re walking are, as you move to a jog, you’re gonna be a midfoot. Right. And with the UL Ultra, running and, and et cetera, the pace that you probably would be going at would be, you know, jog a little bit faster because

Siobhan Milner: it’s not a sprint for sure.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: duration of, of time. And then when you [00:41:00] move to sprints, yes. You’re more, midfoot to mm-Hmm. . You know, forefoot, but it’s still contacting. You’re still coaching, contacting here. Then obviously , you’re gonna, you’re gonna move to midfoot at, at, at sort of takeoff or sorry to forefoot at, at, at takeoff.

So, you know, obviously it’s, it’s dependent on your speed. And, and I’m a very big believer that I mean, again, when you look at , so many of these kinograms or look at slides , you know, of athletes running the elite performing ones, that’s essentially what, what you see. So that’s what you coach to the standard of.

So yeah, I, I agree a hundred percent wholeheartedly with what you’re saying.

Siobhan Milner: I find for me, the only real difference is I, when I’m mountain running, then I am in this, like. More four foot position and that’s just kind of almost an isometric going up the hill.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: And, and again, that’s determined on the, the terrain that you’re, you’re running on as well.

Right. I mean, you know, I [00:42:00] know in a lot of different facilities, they have, essentially, ramps, etc. You know, for, for this reason, and it’s very hard to be completely flat footed in when you’re on an incline. Right. Yeah. Mountain running. That’s interesting.

Siobhan Milner: I love it. And I, that’s the one really hard thing about living in the Netherlands.

I don’t know if you know this. The Netherlands is super, super flat. When I can run, if I go for like a 10 K or something, I make three meters elevation gain here. So I have to travel for my mountains now.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: At some point I’ll get there. I’ve been, I’ve been to the Netherlands, but I haven’t been, um, I haven’t been to the center. And I keep saying, I’m coming back at some point. Um, I tried for years to get, our coaches here to do one of the, training camps there. There’s everything there. No, you guys have everything, you know? Yeah. It looks, it does look like an incredible facility in place to, to, to be entering.

Siobhan Milner: Yeah. We’re very lucky with our facilities, but, I’m [00:43:00] originally from New Zealand. So then I grew up around mountains. So, when I go home, I get all the mountains in that I can.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: Oh, okay. I didn’t know that. I had a Kiwi here, with us for, for a little while.

He went to the university of Texas. And he was here, um, uh, training and, and, and staying with us for a while. Yeah. That’s another place on my bucket list, by the way.

Siobhan Milner: You have to go. It’s beautiful.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: Yeah. I don’t know when, but that’s on my bucket list.

Siobhan Milner: Is there anything else that you feel like you would like to tell people?

Kurt MIchael-Downes: Um, you know, I think, um, coaching is incredible. I think it’s one of the best, passions, jobs , hobbies in the world. You get to be involved with young people. You get to be involved in athletics. You get to meet,, great people and have, wonderful conversations.

 I think, That and anybody would want to be involved with it. You know, if they were able to just,, immerse in it for a little bit. The only other thing I would say is, is, do [00:44:00] just that. Immerse yourself in it and, learn everything you can, and, and, and, and set up think tanks.

You know, uh, years ago I was listening to Gary Winkler talk and he talked about these groups that he used to set up, you know, with a bunch of elite coaches and, there are a bunch of, uh, head coaches or assistant coaches in the NCAA. And what they would do is at every meet or, or cross country meet, they would get together and throw things up on a whiteboard.

Talk about their training programs and, and be kind of scrupulous with it and, you know, not, not attack each other, but, you know, make sure that they defended their thought process. And I’ll say that the best years of coaching that I’ve ever had, you know, maybe even how minimal they’ve been, have been because,, I’ve, I’ve humbled myself and I’ve asked questions.

Um, I’ve been, you know, not afraid to, to talk to people and to throw things up on, on, on a board and, and, and, you know, get it torn up and, and [00:45:00] then, you know, have to explain it. Um, you know, it doesn’t matter how, how good you get, or how good you think you are, um, always opportunities to learn and there’s always opportunities to, you know, to go back and reinvent yourself.

 That would pretty much be, be my advice to, to young coaches or, or, strength and conditioning coaches or maybe even athletes.

Siobhan Milner: I love that. Kurt, where can people find you if they want to know more about you or if they want to work with you?

Kurt MIchael-Downes: Uh, me? Um, um, pretty easy to get a hold of, uh, on, uh, Twitter, Instagram, or sorry, not Twitter, X.

On all those, I’m just, uh, Coach Kurt Michael D. Um, on, on LinkedIn. I think I’m just Kurt Michael Downes. I’m pretty easy to get a hold of. just fire me a message and, it may take a little bit to get back.

But, yeah. You’re a busy man. Currently right now, yes. But yeah, always we’ll try to find time for anyone that I can.

Siobhan Milner: Yeah, and I really appreciate you finding time for this. So thank you so [00:46:00] much.

Kurt MIchael-Downes: No, like I said, excited to come on and get a chance to talk to you. And then obviously, like I said, anything else, please just drop me a line and I will definitely try to get out to the Netherlands at some point.

Siobhan Milner: Thank you.